Hey! Long time no post...apparently all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy, but that's not the case for me here!
So Stardoll has come up with their latest new creation called Starcoins, which is the new Stardoll currency. And they look like this:
I haven't tested this new feature yet, so I'm not sure what to think of it as of now. Here's what Stardoll has to say:
- Now Stardoll has 2 currencies instead of only one!
- More than 20 ways to earn rewards (only 5 before!)
- You can save up to 1000 Starcoins, which means you can shop much...much more!
- The fantastic Earn Starcoins rewards program will replace Play and Earn, offering you tons of ways to earn Starcoins - do the ones that sound fun!
- Now everyone can recycle! And even more than 1 item per day!
What do you think about this new system?
93 comments
i think on the other side that its great that you can save this starcoins because first you just could save 1 of 5 starcoins
you can earn everyday 40 starcoins thats really great i think
the only thing i dont like is that the prices are so expensive. in my opinion you cant see what is really expensive and what not
but for non-ss its a fantastic idea :)
Its a completely annoying idea because if you wish to buy non superstar items you need to convert money and if you do convert you cannot convert back.
Hilarious enough, 40 starcoins is just about 4 stardollars. Not that amazing of an idea if you count it on a daily basis, its even less than what they used to give earlier, just added a 0 at the end. Trying to fool people. Plus the amounts in the suite shop and starplaza changed as well and gone higher, so I think Stardoll is experiencing some kind of inflation?
yes you are right Findurlove the prices are weird
but i think its good that non-ss now can buy more things what were before just for superstars
the annoying thing is that i got many guestbook comments now just with 1 letter because people just want to get their coins. i hate that -.-
It's so terrible, now if you're ss and want more stardollars, you HAVE to buy them, you can't just save up anymore.
I find the idea stupid. Why does stardoll think this is a good idea? It's going to be harder for non-superstars to buy things.
You know what I want to know? If we earned 40 starcoins a day, do we have to spend it on items that have to be purchased with starcoins or can we spend it on items that have to be purchased wth stardollars?
It isn't that great... read between the lines-.-
you can earn 40 starcoins a day... this means 4 stardollars... so you earn one stardollar less than before each day....-.- the prices in the starplaza are much more higher... and anythings becoming more expensive... and it's fake, that even nonSS can recycle their things... my nonss account isn't able to do it... and have a look at the sceneries they all are glitched... it's one more stardoll-bullshit they gave to us-.-
I personally think it SUCKS like a sucky ball of SUCK xD
All the things I could have bought for say, 15 stardollars, have now rocketed to 150 star coins. And that'll take forever to earn :/ And I don't want to convert my stardollars..
For those thinking it's a lot of money remember 1sd=10 starcoins & we used to earn 5sd a day now it's 4sd (40 starcoins). Some items in the starplaza can only be bought with starcoins or only SD which is stupid. You can now save up to 1000starcoins (100sd0. My money has been locked because I am now non-ss unless I want to change to starcoins. How many people will buy a gift, item or their design every day which costs more than the coins you'll get for it, or sell in starbazaar, or make a broadcast? How many clubs can you create? Some of these tasks costs more than what you'll actually earn so we might not make up to 4sd a day. The only good thing about this is I think more opportunities will be open to non-ss members. They just twisted everything so it would look like you're actually earning more when you're not. Don't fall for it.
It's a BIG SCAM to make people buy more stardollars and superstar!
i think everyone know that one gift costs more than you get for it
i created one club, got my coins and delited it, i wrote a guestbook comment and accept a friendrequest, i changed my look what i do everyday and i saved it in my album and then i got my 40 coins
for sure you dont get not the 5 sds like before but you can save them now what you couldnt do before
its not all bad
SUCH A NONSENSE
The blue coins look so ugly in starplaza why didn't they make it yellow, gold or orange? The idea of locking up saved money is stupid, the idea of buying items with only starcoins or stardollars is stupid, The idea of non-ss having only starcoins is really stupid (because coins are a lower denomination of a currency), The idea of converting stardollars to starcoins & not the other way round is stupid & that means whatever starcoins you earn or have saved up you can't buy any ss items with it when/if you become ss. The whole thing is stupid & they should have asked for our opinions first. I hope they make more non-ss items in the suite shop & stardesign. Now I have to lock my guestbook because people would just write anything to get coins.
I HATE THIS SO BAD.
FUCK YOU STARDOLL. Everything's expensive now!
GREEDY MOTHERUCKING STARDOLL!
Everything has been twisted & changed to make it look like you earn more. You know the conversion of SD to starcoins was got from a new game called lady popular where you buy diamonds with real money & you can convert to dollars but you can't convert it back. I can't understand why they lock up stardollars when you become non-ss, it's not their money.
Why didn't they make this announcement on their blog so we could give them our opinions are they scared?
YOURE NOT GONNE SAY THAT IFE U SELL ITEMS U GET ONLY STARCOINS? WHY NOT STARDOLLARS. SD LETTERLY SUCKS NO YOU DONT KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE WILL LEAVE STARDOLL CUZE THEY HAVE TO BUY MORE AND MORE MONEY?? STARDOLL IFE U READ THIS DONT DO IT FORE STARBAZAAR BECAUSE WHE GIVE SD FORE IT AND WE GET SC! WHATS THAT? GRRRRRRR, PLEASE STARDOLL SPOT THIS IDEA. I WILL BE SOON SS AND I WANT TO GET STARDOLLARS NOT STARCOINS BECAUSE THAN YOU JUST STILL BE NON-SS. CUZE YA DO THE SAME!!!!! I THINK I-DRESSUP HAS IT BETTER MUTCH MORE BETER!!!
FUCK YOU STARDOLL GIVE US STARDOLLARS BACK!
i am not ss now and my money is gone my money is locked "Stardollar is the currency of Superstars. Upgrade to unlock or Exchange to Starcoins" i cant spend my money because not ss now its very bad its unfair.
i want old system :(
Credit: http://underneathstardoll.blogspot.com/2011/05/starcoins-more-money-for-everyone.html#ixzz1M2sb0bNN
i am not ss now and my money is gone my money is locked "Stardollar is the currency of Superstars. Upgrade to unlock or Exchange to Starcoins" i cant spend my money because not ss now its very bad its unfair.
i want old system :(
WHE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING:
stardolllistentous.blogspot.com
SAY IN COMMENTS (IN THE BLOG) !! READ IT !! SAY STOP!!!!
Backlash is huge on Royalty group atm,
Honestly, its overcomplicating sd, unnecessary change tbh. Not one of the best ideas they've had.
omg because of this system i have too many friend requests and etc... goosh... :p
i am non-ss but i save 124 sd now they give 1000 sc and 24 sd but i cant use sd because i am not ss and i cant converte sc because it only old ss member...and if you old ss and you have 1000 sd than you have to converte your money because you cant spent sd only scoin...and and if you converted your sd charge(stardoll get %10)
1000 sd==900sc stardoll gets 100 its unfair we spent money and our time this game.....wtf stardoll....we have write stardoll and want old system...right????
i am non-ss but i save 124 sd now they give 1000 sc and 24 sd but i cant use sd because i am not ss and i cant converte sc because it only old ss member...and if you old ss and you have 1000 sd than you have to converte your money because you cant spent sd only scoin...and and if you converted your sd charge(stardoll get %10)
1000 sd==900sc stardoll gets 100 its unfair we spent money and our time this game.....wtf stardoll....we have write stardoll and want old system...right????
I dont really like this, actually I dont like this ever!! its not so fun..no! and i still dont understand about that 1000 max, what that means??
i want old system
i am non-ss but i save 124 sd now they give 1000 sc and 24 sd but i cant use sd because i am not ss and i cant converte sc because it only old ss member...and if you old ss and you have 1000 sd than you have to converte your money because you cant spent sd only scoin...and and if you converted your sd charge(stardoll get %10)
1000 sd==900sc stardoll gets 100 its unfair we spent money and our time this game.....wtf stardoll....we have write stardoll and want old system...right????
read this.....please
i am non-ss but i save 124 sd now they give 1000 sc and 24 sd but i cant use sd because i am not ss and i cant converte sc because it only old ss member...and if you old ss and you have 1000 sd than you have to converte your money because you cant spent sd only scoin...and and if you converted your sd charge(stardoll get %10)
1000sd==900sc stardoll gets 100 its unfair we spent money and our time this game.....wtf stardoll....we have write stardoll and want old system...right????
i am non-ss but i save 124 sd now they give 1000 sc and 24 sd but i cant use sd because i am not ss and i cant converte sc because it only old ss member...and if you old ss and you have 1000 sd than you have to converte your money because you cant spent sd only scoin...and and if you converted your sd charge(stardoll get %10)
1000sd==900sc stardoll gets 100 its unfair we spent money and our time this game.....wtf stardoll....we have write stardoll and want old system...right????
i dodn't get used to the new system...everything is weird :(
i think its really annoying... and i'll wait for the crazy starbazar changes...omg what is coming ther??
I think stardoll NEEDS money really bad^^
The new items...for a boring long dress 24 SD??? wtf*
and now this...they are trying to manipulate us to buy a membership or top up stardollars!!!
If stardoll doesn't stop beeing that commercial that would be unfair!
I hate this idea, but, as always, we'll get used to it sooner or later. It's a bad thing, tahta SS can't buy non-SS things for SD. Also, now you only get 4SD (40SC) a day, insted of 5.
The only good thing is, that they improved the Starbazaar - now we can safely trade with the ability of "Reserve for":
http://i54.tinypic.com/2ij5fg5.jpg
Unfortunately, now we can only sell our clothes only for SC, or am I wrong?
*that
*instead
:D
@Emilija/9002Miss2009:
I didn't see that they also changed the starbaazar. The reserve for thing is great but now you can sell articles for 500sc what is only 50sd! That's absolutely impossible, they can't do that! Selling LE for 50sd is just ridiculous!
@all the others:
I really lold when I saw that really everyone doesn't like or even HATE the new system. We all have the same opinion :D. It's absolutely unfair and a ripoff! I wrote stardoll but I think it's useless :/
GRRRR
Wake up Stardollians. They give us 1000 coins but raise the prices of normal clothes to 100. They are not gonna be generous, they want you to buy more superstar with your real money ! Stardoll is greedy, not fun anymore ! I can personally afford the ss accounts but the quality of the clothes is not as great as it used to be. And spending real money in unreal things is getting frustrating. I think I'll wait until my membership ends then ... Goodbye capitalists ! Kids out there with brains should do the same before it's too late.
This is by far their worst idea EVER!
I hate it sooo much! Now that I'm a non-SS I can't buy anything! Do a simple math, we used to get 5 SD from Play and Earn, now we get 40SC, 1SD is 9SC, do a simple math and you'll see that we've been played again. It's getting old.
it's nice you can earn a lot more AND save it, but also the prices are higher :/ so it's the same, only you are able to save money
@Mary271
Yep, I saw this too and thought "What the...?"
If they let sell things for SD and for SC, I'd understand, but what happened now?
As I have now noticed, every time Stardoll tries to make sth good for us, the usually fail. And a lot.
i hate it! non-SS used to be able to buy ANYTHING from the starbazaar now with this horrible starcoins idea we can only buy crappy stuff.
they did that because they want non-ss to have limited entertainment. i think we non-SS should make a strike! it's unfair, we didn't say we wanted recycling crap and we aas well as SSs bring money to this site.they're trying to make us become SS by some propaganda of them becoming fair! well to hell with that! i think we non-SS should make a big strike! i'm sick of this site! every few months they limit our fun more till we won't have any fun at all!
I don't think it's a bad idea, but there are obvious flaws, most of which Maggie's already pointed out.
stupid! now we cant sell stuf for stardollars and we have to buy stardollars for real money! stardoll has gotten so gready its disgusting
is a terrible idea. honestly.
oo i hate it coz its a pain for th ss.
coz u earlier we could buy th ss as well as non ss stuff with th same money bt nw to buy some stuff we need sd n fr some we need sc thats a pain + we cant earn sd nymore which means jst 200sd a week thats ALL!!!!! x( x( HATE IT!!!!!! n it takes a LOT of time to do soooo many things to earn tht money so in my opinion not one of the best things to do.
add me im Lucy98Ray on stardoll.
Ooooooohhhhhhh,I HATE IT SO SO SO SO MUCH!I'm SS now and -I need more SD,'cuz I don't have much...And now what-No Play&Earn,no REAL STARDOLLIARS FOR FREE!I want to buy make-up etc.But I don't have much money!Want real SD?BUY THEM!WHY?I don't understant it at all!!!Stardoll just getting worst aand worst...Stardoll needs money from US!That's the biggest thing why they doing all whis nonsenses!!!Of course it's good thing for NonSS...But,can they do anything good for everyone?I think they can...But they don't want...Shocked...
I HATE STARDOLL!
Thequeeness, non-ss need to recycle too. And this does not just affect non-ss it affects everyone too. I am currently non-ss & my money has been locked. I'm hoping they don't automatically convert it or they would hear it from me. They say you can save 1000 starcoins but you can't use it to buy ss items. Why would they have items for only starcoins or stardollars I wonder, it's just ridiculous!
This is so confusing do you still only get 1 sd for recycling ?
Ziedefan, It's not good for non-ss too they can only buy items in starcoins. This affects everyone.
I don't really understand this, but it makes everything awkward. Why introduce a new currency when users were happy with the old one? Focus on giving us stuff we actually want like perhaps the ability to get jobs on stardoll and earn money or a trading system so we don't have scammers?
3 words... Stupidest Thing Ever.
@Anonymous who replied to me:
I didn't say it affects Non-SS only.I know it affects everone.I was just saying my side of the story.Now i'm actually REALLY S**tty because downloading the stardoll bar AND connecting to twitter only got me 10 SDs not 20 as should be (according to what was written by them)which i can't EVEN USE!
I AM FED UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We should all stop using stardoll until they change to normal again!
They think they can fool us but they can't!
I realy hate it. It's so hard to do everthing on the list for starcoins. And everthing is also expience.
its not good news for non-ss or on/off ss. its a pain to earn the 40 starcoins and stardollars r locked unless u switch them and lose 10%. and starbazaar is practically closed to non-ss now...only very very very few non-interesting items in starbazaar to buy with starcoins.
i get in confused !
And i dont like it !
XxX , MY
i guess every person who don't like it should write to stardoll and let them know about it. i hate it too and i will let stardoll know about it
I made a club called STRIKENOW
Anyone who disagrees with the idea of starcoins please join.We can all join up and make a big strike about it.I wrote to the customer service about it and they didn't answer.
Anonymous,
Ya it's true...I was just shocked(now too) and I didn't watch what I write...But everything I wrote,execpt about nonSS is true...I'm SO CONFUSED!!!
BIGGEST FAIL FROM STARDOLL EVER.
I hate it.
i just... hate it.
Well at first i thought it was a great idea, because i thought non-ss could make some really easy money...way too easy to be true.
Does stardoll really think we're That stupid? Are they trying to fool us?!
I'm not going to spend my whole day on stardoll to get 40 starcoins and even then, i wouldn't be able to buy sunglasses!! -.-'''
I can't believe what the owners are doing to stardoll!
We were completly happy with the old money, so why the hell did the go and change it?
Just one word for them: FAIL ;)
You can go to the official blog to give your opinion. This topic has been explained. I hope the reaction would not be as bad as the starbazaar one though.
I'm not impressed. Its a lot more hassle for less money and more expensive items. The stardollar system was working just fine...if it "ain't" broke, don't fix it!!!
I hate it!
Look @ starplazzaa everything is 40+ starcoins:| Now non-ss will be a living hell...
It's because stardoll are runnign low on money and it costs them even when you earn 1SD in play and earn so they were thinking of making a new way to get it cheaper, I think it's stupid because you have to be SS to get all 40 stardollars and then you'll have to buy a memeber ship and end up spending money and starcoins you don't need. I got a warning and saved 50 stardollars so I can afford quite alot, the best ay is to use up the offers, and convert because other than that it's just a fucking disaster.
Hate it.
Yesterday, we could win a Stardollar (10 Starcoins) with just one click.
Today, for 1 Stardollar (10 Starcoins), we HAVE to do everything.
And non-ss can recycle their items. If someone hacks your account, your account will be bare. :(
I WANT OLD SYSTEM xS
it sucks and i am sick of stardoll i am now a nonss i used to be ss and it is shitty as hell...
just a basics skirt for 40 starcoins ?! just shocked. it is a stupid thing.
and we cannot buy anything (except the silly items) from starbazaar.
i won 27 starcoins. will they be able tomorrow?
I really dont live this new system , If you dont are Superstar , you actually pay more for 1 shoe - 70 starcoins ? I really prefer the old system . On starbazar , its the same thing , you could buy anything if you had the money now you cant . The smat thing that they could do is for the people who are seeling the things to choose the prize that they want to put , on Stardollars or Starcoins , it will be much better for eacher . This system have some problems
This has good sides and bad sides. I don't think it will effect me now, as my 2 dolls are ss, but it may effect me later...
Evermoregirl this affects everyone. When you're ss you have to convert your stardollars to coins if you want a non-ss item. And when you're no longer ss (like me) your money is locked & you have to pay commission to use it & don't forget you're only allowed to have 1000 coins (100sd) as savings. This limits everyone ss & non-ss alike.
AAAH! I HATE THIS SYSTEM!!!!! PLEASE PLEASE DO SOMETHING! A PETITION OR ANYTHING! AND NO, THIS IS NOT BETTER FOR NON-SS! IS THE MAX THOUSAND COINS FOR EVER OR A MONTH? CAUSE IF YOU CAN ONLY EARN 1000 FOR YOUR WHOLE STARDOLL LIFE, THATS 25 DAYS OF 40 COINS, AND AFTER THAT ITS YOUR STARDOLL IS WORTHLESS IF YOUR NON-SS. WITH THE NEW EARNING SCHEME, YOU NEED TO SPEND WAY MORE TIME ON STARDOLL, I HATE THIS, STARDOLL SUCKS FROM NOW ON!
PROTEST! PROTEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Girls, if we can't make a change and tell stardoll, who else will? WE MUST TELL THEM. POST ON GUESTBOOKS, MAKE SCENERIES AND BROADCAST. MAKE NEW PROFILES AND BROADCAST AGAINST THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LET'S ALL BOYCOT STARDOLL
I don't think I want to go on there anymore, there's no point, I basically can't buy anything with this stupid new idea and I'm not going to turn superstar either :|
I've been a member of stardoll for over 5 years now and it's just getting worse and worse and its just not a fun website anymore; ALL THEY WANT IS OUR REAL MONEY and they'll do anything to get it.
I think we should all just stop going on there for a while to prove to them that they're getting a bit ridiculous ! (I don't think anyone will actually go along with my idea but hey)
xx
oh my fucking god
I HATE THIS SO MUCH
I HAVE 1530 STARDOLLARS
I DONT WANNA EXCHANGE THEM
OMFG OMFGOMFOGMFOGMOFMG
AND NOW EVERYTHING WITH COINS
IS SUPER EXPENSIIVEEE I FUCKING
HATE THIS SO FUCKING ODSLD;SLKAS;JFLKDAS;LAKFDS;LKFDSJA WHYYYYY DID MY SUPERSTAR HAVE TO EXPIRE OMFG OMFGOMFOGMOM.
Actually, the StarCoins are non-Superstar. The Stardollars and for Superstars.
No, in the Pretty n Love store all the sandals and cute bags I like to buy are all mostly Starcoins and I'm royalty. And I do not want to convert my Stardollars into Starcoins. Why so they can take their 10 percent?!?! This system is retarded and I already posted on Underneath.
The only things that are being sold in the Starbazaar for Starcoins are first Season DKNY and other items that came out in maybe 2007 and before. Seems like all the really old items are being sold for purple coins and everything after is Stardollars. That's not too bad. All Le is still being sold for Stardollars so that's good! Like my Le heart clutch, if I wanted to list for Stardollars I could.
First season DKNY sellers are screwed though. If you're a seller, you can now sell first season Dkny for 500 starcoins which is only 50 or 60 bucks! -.- Why did they do that, I have no idea....everyone knows those bags are worth 500?!?!?
Makes no sense.
This whole system is bogus I saw we do something! I guess go to the offical blog and COMPLAIN!!!!
I HATE THIS SO MUCH. they improve one thing (the reservations) and ruin another. I HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE THIS.
At first I thought it was a great idea but after reading more and more comments especially the ones from non ss, i now think it's stupid
Thats it. This is the last virtual straw. I am leaving stardoll.
70 starcoins for a pair of shoes works out to be 7 stardollers. So for those who say the prices are dear covert it back to old prices works out to the same price you would pay anyway.
i am afiad they are going to convert my stardollars into coins when my membership is over. this isnt right and we have to do something about.. stardoll reads our blogs, i think we should all make posts saying how much we dislike this idea. they could change it, you never know..
This is so unfair :(
STARDOLL YOU ARE SO DUMB.
99% of the people talking about the new currency HATE it!! But nothing will change if we ALL don't voice our opinions. We MUST write stardoll and if no change happens, we need to hit them where it hurts, their POCKETS!! I have already vowed to strike. I will not invest any more of my hard earned money to continue my SS status or buy more stardollars. I have written stardoll to voice my disappointment with the new currency system. I beg you...if you feel the same way, write them and GO ON STRIKE WITH ME!!
AngelRoxxStar4
Oh wait! The 10 percent fee is for prior superstars so I think this means if you were a superstar and your membership ran out and they ended up freezing your stardollars. When you get back, if you want to exchange to starcoins, then you get taxed the 10 percent, b/c notice it says "prior" superstars and not current. So I think there is no tax for current superstars. Hope I'm figuring that out right.
I think we should all send message to staroll to get back the old system!
this idea is just stupid! i'm non ss and used to buy many things in the Starbazaar but now you can't buy any good things anymore because everything is just for stardollars, which i obviously don't have!
If they don't change it back, i'll stop playing!
macadamndoll
I tried it with my one acc...I wait about 1Day...Now message...
stardoll has cheated us!
it is getting on my nervers. first v use to feel bad that v r not ss because our parents don't allow and now this fool system! :'( I HATE STARDOLL!
i think we should all threaten to leave if stardoll doesnt change it back xD
I really hate it. It makes me not want to go on stardoll. What can we do?
why you hide how much money do you have?! you are anyway non-ss and do not have a superstar money hidden Besides others why everyone!
I don't get what everyone's complaining about. This feature has only been up for a few days, so no one has even earned 1000 starcoins yet. And I don't think it's that you can only earn 1000 starcoins forever; I interpreted it as you can only SAVE 1000 starcoins. I.e., spend more to save more. But you can earn 40 starcoins a day, EVERYDAY. Do the math: 10sc=1sd. 10sc x 30 days in a month=300sc. 300sc=30sd. That's much more than any non-ss used to get. NOW IF it's at 1000 cap FOREVER, then that's a rip off. But you won't know till you get there, so get there first.
As for the people with locked SD...sorry :( Just means you go a few days without buying anything and start saving up.
Also for earning starcoins, I've earned my 40sc a day so far without doing anything I normally wouldn't do. I don't create clubs, I don't buy gifts, I don't broadcast a message, I don't start a party, whatever. The only thing I do that costs money is buying something from the shop, but I did that regularly anyway. Yes, you have to do more to get your money, but SD is trying to ENCOURAGE activity, so that's the whole point.
I don't see this as such a bad thing. Yes, the items look more expensive, but it's really the same price, just with an added 0. The clothes they have available for non-ss lately are much better quality than the ones they used to have.
I think one of the improvements they could make to this system is to keep the Play & Earn 70sd a month but limit it only to SS, that way SS who have used up their 200sd monthly allowance can still buy SS-only items. But since most of the activities now reward you with sc, they'd have to figure out a way to work around it so that SS can earn sd.
And for the people who said they should focus on other things, such as a possible trading system, they have already fixed that. Now you can reserve any item for anyone. If that's not fixing it, I don't know what is. Also, concerning the selling items for starcoins in the bazaar, only items that were originally also for non-ss are sold for starcoins. And if you're trying to sell a non-ss item for more than 50sd (500sc), you're a ripoff anyway.
Maybe what you guys don't understand is that yes, Stardoll is a company that has created a game targeted toward young girls, and it's made for their enjoyment. But the bottom line is that Stardoll is a BUSINESS. They're trying to make the most money they can without ripping you off. I don't see this system as a ripoff at all (unless of course, 1000sc is the max. Then my entire argument has no basis.). So I say try it out before you keep complaining.
I think its allright. But i wud prefer the old system
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